15 - The Grudge (Tool)

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down. What an OPENER to the most EPIC album. Seriously one of the coolest songs ever. Chills everytime. Honored to have my first guest ever - my brother Mario - the man who first got me into Tool way back around 2003!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today we're talking about the opening track to Tool's album, Lateralis. The song is The Grudge, and this is a very special episode because I have my first guest ever, and it's my brother Mario. So please excuse the sound quality. I recorded this episode with my iPhone at my brother's office in his home. But it's very special, and I hope you learn a lot about the song. Here we go. What's up, guys? I'm so excited for today's episode because we're talking about the grudge, and I have the man who got me into tool in the first place. My first guest ever, I got my brother Mario. What's up, Mario?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Hey, how's everybody doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:33

I'm so excited for this, man. We're talking gonna be ringing about the grudge, man.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

I'm super excited. I love love this song. Such an important song when we were growing up, you know, it kind of got us into the whole tool craze. And, you know, we were playing drums and guitar. Yeah, Mario.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Mario's a drummer. I've been playing guitar for like 22 years now. You've been playing drums for about the same time.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

You you haven't played in a little while though.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, yeah. That's what that's what three kids will do to you. So we got.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

And it's so simple, right? But it's so rhythmic.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Can we talk about the very beginning of this song?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

I am doing the very beginning. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

There's there's something even before.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Oh, of course, like the chair lift, right? Or the elevator lift. What is that sound? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

It's so like industrial, right? Yeah. And it really sets you up for the rest of the album to come. Yeah. Like we hadn't, I mean, nobody had heard from Tool since 1996. Right? But when did Salival come out? Salival came out in 1998.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Quick fact check Salival came out on December 12th, the year 2000, and Lateralis came out on May 15th, 2001.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

You know, it wasn't issued as largely as as Animo was, right? So, you know, the tool was like in the court battle and stuff, and you know, over their the rights to their own music. Um and you know, I think they were fed up a lot, right? But they just they just went into the studio in 2000 and they just you know really put something really special together. And I think the grudge really kind of reflects a lot of that struggle that they had with all those legal battles.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Right, exactly, yeah. And Lateralis is there's a lot of healing throughout the songs in Lateralis, right? They're like themes. It's kind of like Dark Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd, is like themes that drive us crazy. And Lateralis is like kind of similar in the sense of you know, it's like patience, the grudge, and um schism, like a division between like in love, you know, and like Maynard is so amazing about having such a transformation in his songs, and I feel like the grudge is like where the grudge, like a the song is about letting go of a grudge, which is like such a difficult thing to do. And I just love the way he like you know uses imagery and just his lyrics. Like, we're gonna talk about the lyrics in the song, right? And we're gonna go through it all. Yeah, um, yeah, but you were saying how the intro sound kind of sets it up.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

It's I just think it's super cool. Like, you know, when we got lateralis for the first time on on our CD players, yeah, it was just like, wait, is this thing broken? Like, wait, and then it just hits you.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

And then what's this? It sounds like a grudge, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

Yeah, it's incredible. I just love just what the instrumentation, what the rhythms that are being played. Danny is doing this ostinato. What's ostinato? Ostinato is something that occurs over and over again. It's a it's a repeating pattern. Is that is that like the rhythmic motif? Like so that what you're playing right now is one of the motifs, the rhythmic motifs that Danny plays throughout the the whole song. Yes. But this first one that when you hear it on on second number six is uh is a Swiss Army triplet followed by a flam tap. So I can't, I'm not gonna demonstrate it now, but uh you can you can look it up. But it's uh it's a it's a pattern that when you put it together, um it's in five eight and he's doing that over the floor times to uh to sort of drive at this ostinato pattern.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Okay. So I'm doing the metronome one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, one, two, three, four, five, right? Two, three, four, five. The whole s not the whole song, but a huge chunk of the song is in five, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Five, four or five, eight?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Uh, well, it depends on how you count it. Yeah, but you know, it depends on which what what is the pulse that's being felt. Yeah. Whether it's a quarter note pulse or it's an eighth note pulse. Um, I feel like in the beginning of the song, you're really getting an eighth note pulse. Yeah. It's not really sort of more it's not it's not going super fast. I'm sorry, it's not going super slow, so you're getting like this like constant motion and momentum, you know, to kick things off. So I I kind of count it more as like a 5'8 groove. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

And the guitar, the key interval here is the minor second, which is the smallest interval there is in Western music, right? The smallest distance between two notes. So we got, and then we got right? That's the minor second. It's kind of like walk. Except walk by Pantera actually has a little, it kind of like bends up to the major second and goes back down to the minor second and then down to the root. Wow. But the grudge is it's just, you know, open string to the first frets, the smallest interval there is in Western music, and the grudge mainly hovers, like he uses that note a lot. And that's what Adam's doing. It's so simple. And he's always doing something simple because Dan Danny takes care of the complex often, and Justin is doing melody. We got the bass doing the melody. And I want to blow your mind. I don't know if you ever realized this, but this. That's the bass melody? Yeah. Does that ring a bell? Look.

unknown 6:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Right. Look. Was he foreshadowing? I don't know, bro. It's crazy. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 6:40

Like, I don't know. But there's something about those, there's something to be said about those intervals, right? Like that's that's the perfect fifth. That's the perfect fourth, and then that's the minor seventh, and then back to the fifth. And it just listen to that. Watch. It's so like tool. It's so like the perfect fifth is so grand and epic. Right. It's a da-da-da-da-da-da. It's so big and epic, and when you go from the fifth to the fourth, you go. It's so formal and open. But then when you go to the it's like hopeful and like reaching, right? Right. The minor seventh is so reaching.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yo, this is something that Tool does a lot where they're not focused so much on chord structure all the time. Yeah, they're really not, right? It's a lot of one, like root, root chord. Right, which is common in like heavy metal. Yeah. Like we're not heavy metal isn't the genre you reach to for like interesting chords that drive through a story. Yeah. A narrative. Um, but you're right, Tool does something really they do what they do really well, which is own like a harmonic space, which is like the the five, the seven, the the whole pentatonic. They do a lot of pentatonic. But they do it, they do like a lot of arpeggios like that, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

So that's what the bass is doing, right? And that's like the first theme, dude, dun boom, but then we go to the which is a really nice variation, right? Because we got right, and that's like nice pentatonic notes, but they haven't hit the minor third yet, which is like the right? We got fourth, the fifth, the seventh, and then when we go the he covers the octave and the third there. So, like, by the time they hit that second riff, they've now played the the minor pentatonic scale. Um, but but they're adding the minor second, you know. So it's like here's the pentatonic scale, everybody, with this dirty because the minor second isn't part of the pentatonic scale. It's not, no, it's not. Right. No, it's not. The major second would be part of the minor natural, natural minor scale, but they're doing the flat second, so it's like, look how gross. So gross. So yeah, we got so grudgy. Yeah, so grudgy. We got we got octave, upper octave, and then we got the minor third right there. And does it go? Does it go? Does it go? Jeez, your password's that long? How many passwords how many characters is your password? Like 16. Jesus. Okay, and then we finally got it it alternates between those two riffs in the intro, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

And I love I love like the little right?

SPEAKER_01 9:38

There's like a little kind of like a little air of suspense. And then yeah. And then Danny just goes to a lot of his mandala drums, which are like these electronic drum, you know, pads that he has strown across his kit. And he programs them for every song. And you see that uh when he brings all his gynosic preamps with him, like when they go live. Yeah, he's twiddling with them like in between songs. You can see him do that. But um for the grudge, he's adding these like really kind of tight, uh tight high attack sounds that kind of sound like you're dribbling on some, you know, like tight drum, like just who else is doing this? I don't know, man, but he's yeah, so he's really setting the stage for something that's about to come, right? Like he's done Danny, Danny has done his ostinado, his drum stuff. He's war he's weaving it in with with with Adam, with what Adam and Justin are putting down. They add a little variation to it, and then you're right, they stop, right? And then you hear that minor dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dungeon on just some and there's like delay on Justin's bass, and it's like man, it really is like just the onset of something huge.

SPEAKER_02 11:03

Right. And then we got Maynard. Yep. And we gotta add the fourth person to the, you know. And he comes in so rhythmically, right? One note. Da da da da da root da da da da da da da da da da. Wear the grudge like a crown of negative to the G calculate, what we will or will not tolerate. He does the minor seventh there. He goes, he goes, right? Desperate to control all and everything. Unable to forgive your Scarlet Letterman. What do you think he means by that? I don't know, but we kinda I think I was reading Scarlet the Scarlet Letter around that time in high school. Uh-huh. So it kind of like was resonating just that moment. But I just love what he's like, I love the way he's talking about having a grudge. Like, wear this grudge, wear the grudge like a crown. It is like a crown of negativity, right? Calculate what we will or will not tolerate. It's like so judgmental, right? You're desperate to control all and everything, unable to forgive your scarlet letterman.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

To me, it it it you know, with Maynard, a lot of the times you don't know if he's talking as if he's a victim of his own of his own lyrics, or uh if he's talking about somebody else. And in here I think he's talking about something really universal. We all feel this way sometimes, where we you know, we dig we deem ourselves the king of of a situation, of a problem or a conflict with somebody else, and we think that we are we are right. Right. And we and you know, we don't figure it out until later when someone you know tells us we're wrong. Um but I I think Maynard is really kind of speaking to all of us in this moment where he's you know saying that this is something that that permeates through all of us, and we can let let's stay mad for a minute. And I think that's what the Gribs is all about. Yeah, let's stay, let's, let's stay in this space, let's carve it out, and let's explore this this space of negativity and frustration and anger, right? Yeah. So in some ways, right? That's that's just one interpretation.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

But I love how the song explodes right after like desperate to control all and everything on the ball to forgive your scarlet letterman. Is it ten times? It's ten times, right? It's not eight times. Uh scarlet letterman. That's right. It's like ten times, I believe, right? Right. Because like it's ten and five, it's a lot of that in the grudge, right? Right. It's not four measures of four four in here. Right, no.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

And then we got and then we got this beautiful. But before we before we get that, I want to share, I wanna share what Danny's doing because it's really, really cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Oh, of course.

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I'm so focused on the guitar, just have to bring this up, okay? Please do. Just to kind of give you a little bit more context here, alright? So what Danny is doing here is is actually quite simple, but just so powerful and and something you don't really hear that often, right? Um he is slamming down on his ride and his snare, which I think the wires are off at this at this stage.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

What do you mean the wires are off?

SPEAKER_01 14:27

So a snare drum is different than all the other drums on the kit because it has a snare wire on the bottom, right? Those snare wires can be engaged on. Oh, okay, okay, of course, of course, of course. So, for you know, a lot of Danny's drumming, he he doesn't turn the wires on.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

Yeah, exactly. It's not a typical snare sound like you would hear in any any like rock, like yeah, like chili peppers or any any song, like off in the snare is on. Exactly. Yeah, he's got the snare off a lot, which sounds like a tom.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Exactly, right? Uh, but in this moment, he's got he he he's just slamming down this ride in his snare. He's going one, two, three, four, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, thirty-second notes in the on the bass strum. So it's like this like ever increasing in velocity rhythm that's starting with one, two, three, four, one, two, three, one, two, three, two, three, two, two, two, three, two, three, three, two, two, three, two, three. And then he stops. Wow. So that's all footwork. Double bass. Double bass, yeah. But while keeping the the rhythm with his uh ride and his snare the same the whole time. Right. So I just think that's really a really nice, like, you don't really hear that a lot in music. It's such a nice crescendo. Yeah. And then shh. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I love when it goes, wow, what the heck is that? That's Danny, right? It is it's one of his drum trigger sounds. I just love how we have this gorgeous, like, dude, the bass tone of that riff is so beautiful. And it's so such clever placement of notes. And there's that, those two top notes are the are the perfect fifth and the minor seventh. There's a that's the perfect fifth, and then there's that minor seventh, like the. They're they got it all locked down pat man. Right? And then I just love how over this drift you got you, they're like drilling in the rhythmic motif. That like don't forget about this, guys. Right, exactly. Do the one, two, here we go. And then right, and then Adam's just like they're drilling in this rhythmic motif, right? And then Maynard's like, alright, well, I'm gonna sing now, right? And what's he saying? Clutch it, clutch it like a corner stone. Otherwise, it all comes down so nice. I just love like the just the word choice and the alliteration. Is it alliteration when they both start with the same? Just like clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise, it's like percussive, you know?

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yeah, it is very percussive.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Justify denials and grip them to the lonesome end. Oh my god, like grip it, hold on to this grudge, right? It's like let's let's he always starts negative, right? Yeah, and he ends positive by the end of the song, but like it's it's all negative now, right? Clutch it like a cornerstone, otherwise it all comes down down. Terrified of being wrong.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

Ultimatum prisms, the prison cell. That's I mean, that's dark, man.

SPEAKER_02 17:51

Terrified of being wrong. And uh Justin's doing something crazy. He's like, uh he's like he's like something like he's kind of just like he's doing this really tool-ish riff over like it's just like all everyone's going. Uh-huh. Even in this like quieter moment, like everyone's just going, everyone's doing their thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

And so we're still in five, and Danny is switching now to uh a basic groove that kind of keeps things moving, but it's it's it's a lot less complicated, it's not focused on what he's doing. It's really the moment is for Maynard.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Yeah. Get the lyrics across. Saturn, and they get more intense. I just love what he's talking about. He's like seeing Saturn's, he's talking about Saturn ascending, choose one or ten, hang on or be. Um I always thought he said, like in the 2000s, I always thought he said I'm bored again. I'm bored again. Saturn ascends, man. I wish I knew more about what he's talking about with like the Saturn part. Yeah. You know, choose one or ten, hang on. If you guys know, just like please write them in the comments. Like, write all your grudge facts in the comments. Especially when it comes to the lyrics, too. Hang on or be humble the gain. And it's so mated, right? Wait, oh we were changing keys here. Humble the geah. It's so mained to go which is like oscillating between the perfect fifth and the minor sixth. Like what song is that, Dan? Soba. So humble the gee.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

And then it goes. So Adam is kind of riffing off of the word. Yeah, same notes.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

That's cool. And that's that's the same note when later he goes, the damage jam. They're like paying respect to each other. They're like kind of tipping each other. Like, you know, like Adam's doing that, those notes before Maynard screams them later. That's cool. It's all cool stuff like that. And I just I love the theme of the because that's still the right. So he's going like the right? That's it's all just the theme. They're they're so good at honing, drilling down the theme. Right. I love that. And then the clutch it like a corner stone, like the look at this roof. Really cool. It's in five, isn't it? Can you count it?

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Three, four, one, two, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five, one. Yeah. Yeah. And then what Danny's doing there is going back to the toms and really nailing them down and and kind of just making this this intensity grow with just like the pounding, incessant pounding on like the snare, this toms to kind of kind of drive things forward. Really, really great spot for him.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

And he's and Maynard's singing an octave up in the first, I guess if you want to call it a verse, there's no chorus in this song, man.

unknown 21:32

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

Right? Like, what's going on here? Song. Like, the song structure is grudge. Right? Yeah. Like, so he in in the first singing, I guess, he's like, clutch it like a cornerstone. But now he's like, clutch it like a corner stone. Just the five denos. And then STARD! Jesus, we're changing keys here, bro. No stands! Just very sad, the minor notes. Comes round again! And then and then I think this one like Are they doing a chug though?

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Is it I think it's real bad?

SPEAKER_02 22:28

It's like number seven! This is my favorite part of the whole song. Well no, it's it's top two or top three. Alright, go, go. Let me number and two! Dude, I can't get enough of that, dude. Dude, I can't get enough of that, dude.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

It's awesome. It's that's how those are the moments where we fall in love with Mater the most. Like him like yelling like that, and really like it's so cathartic to just like do that and to like soak that in. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

It's the notes that he's singing that I just love so much.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

He's doesn't have like a little bend to like the tritone. Oh no, no, it's not. It's but he or maybe it's a little uh sharp.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Does he?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Does he? Does he do that? That's crazy. I think I think it is just a little bit sort of rounded out in the pitch.

SPEAKER_02 23:46

Like just like the tip to the minor sixth. Here's the fifth, which is a very common manner scream note. But when he goes, that's just like so much more haunting. But then I love that the the main scream is the fourth.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Which is which is a what kind of note. I mean, it's it feels very like like unfulfilled. It's just sort of lingered. It doesn't, it's not, it's not root, that's where he eventually goes to. But he's just he can either go up or down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Oh, but but the uh that's Jimmy. Oh no, that's a tritone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

So he's going from the but he's like almost, almost as if he's suggesting we let things go. Oh yeah, he just brings it down to root.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Dude, I just I that part is so like amazing, dude. He's at the one, the ten, and no run to the damage done. And then we're like all cylinders, right? Yeah, we're looking for the grudge like a crown of negativity, desperate to control all another thing on the ball to fucking. Where are we where are we reading? I don't know. Oh, there it is. Oh, where the crutch Oh we were reading, we're supposed to yeah, this is what we're doing. Oh, that's it. Oh yeah, that's it. Okay, it's just it's the same lyrics. Where the grudge like a crown, and then we go like well watched. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Where the grudge like a crown.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

No, this is this is the wear the grudge like a crown. Oh. No, you're talking about defining and confining. I'm talking about the part before that. Yeah, that which is wear the grudge like a crown, and then you get this this this this call and response thing happening, right? Maynard is saying, wear the grudge like a crown, and then Danny's going, go do gum dum. Oh, you're talking about wear the grudge like a crown!

SPEAKER_02 26:07

Wear the bull to forgive!

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Oh, desperate to control.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

And then is this this is still five, but it now we're like five, four, like, but there's something so what changes here? What changes here?

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Four, five, one, two. Now we don't have this this constant feeling of of of eighth note subdivisions. We have quarter notes. You're right. It feels very like kind of stuck in the mud, but we're still trudging through. Right. And it it's almost the same feeling as like in lateralis. Like when the whole song is really like this almost like back and forth, wavering, momentous kind of rhythm. Yeah. It's kind of like a cradle.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

And then and then at the very end, you get this crazy 12-4, you know, uh when things open up at Yeah. Right? Things are trudging through a little bit more. Talk about the end. You're trying to go like Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, don't do you feel that the pulse has changed? Yeah, the gravity has changed. Exactly. That's what's happening here in the grudge for the first time. We're not no longer getting this like sway, the sway, right? Of the of the eighth notes. The eighth notes help us kind of make make more more motion happen, right? But this is more laid back. But this is more laid back, exactly. Sinking deeper.

SPEAKER_04 27:50

I love a lot of color there.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

We got that's the minor seventh again, and then four. And of course the f minor six to the third. Oh wow. Controlin! Look at that. Controlin. And then I just love when he goes, Definin! Oh, it's so tall, dude. Yeah. And wear sink. I I love the I love the this part. I love when Adam just he's so good at the mutes. Like it schism, but like stick fist.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

You know, like so beautifully like And he has a he has a lot of distortion and gain going on. Yeah, yeah, this is huge.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

This is huge sound. This is top sound right here. Okay. But like, those mutes are just like L.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

So this part is weird. It's very cool. You know, Danny is is is switching right back to that that eighth note uh subdivision, and he's just pummeling right through. He's going straight for like uh the ride, and he's like adding the toms as like a backfill, and he's he's repeating the same pattern four times throughout that passage. Yeah. So, but he's like, he's relentless. He's like, he's got the snare on, and he turned the snare wires back on. When does he do that? He does that when he's doing the asinado uh right before the the the quarter note groove. Yeah, yeah. So he he flips it right back then and now he's just driving through like stone five.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Let you choose what you will. Oh man. And will not see and then drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again. He's talking about that's something to do with Saturn, man. Yeah, something to do with Saturn. Drag you down like a stone. But it's like it's so he's like personifying the music, like with the lyrics, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:14

It's like it's like drags you down like a stone, lifts you up again, spits you out like a child, right? Like and then it's just Saturn goes back around. Right?

unknown 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah, I mean, and then you know the drums are intense in this moment, the the music's intense, and then all of a sudden, he says to to consume you till you choose to Yeah, he goes Choose to Yeah, it's like holding that major ninth there you know anytime you hold a major ninth over the root minor chord like what does that suggest?

SPEAKER_02 31:08

It's just so like majestic, dude. It's majestic, but it's also like very uh what it's very sad, right? It's very sad. It's very melancholic. Yeah, very melancholic. Let this go holding on the tension.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

This is the back half of the song now. We've gone through most of the lyrical matter and now we're just letting the three guys sort of you know take it, take our lyrics.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

This is like the turning point, the turning point, right? Where now he's focused on letting this go. Dude, he screams it, man. Yeah. He tritone screams it to consume you, till you but I just love like lifts you up drags or drags you down like a stone to consume you, right? Until you choose to let this go. Choose to let this go. And this is like the waters, the deep water. I love how he talks about like alchemy, dude, in this moment. Like he's talking about turn these leaden grudges into gold. And he's talking about letting the waters kiss and transmute, and I want to talk about his melody, but just like the we're underwater.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

I love like the chimes and the bells that yeah, what's going on? He's just adding a little flavor on top, that's all.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Oh I was talking about this yeah, like the synth. There's like a there's like a flanger, like and I love those. Sorry. Okay, but like these are just the pentatonic notes, guys. Just like that is so that's like uh Rosetta Stone. Right? Yeah. Picture this if you will. Right? Like that that's all he's doing. It's not that complicated. It's not complicated, but it's it's like the way he's playing it. Obviously, the tone is just beautiful, it sounds like a laser. And uh I but the note choice is very important. Like he starts, he goes. Like that is so key. Like going from root to the minor seventh, the minor seventh down to the fourth. And then root. And then you gotta be you gotta the other side of tool is sorry. There's that minor second, that's the that's the and then and then so I love nice little trill. Great. It's so underwater, right? It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Yeah, and then at this moment, Danny's like, he's just nailing down. He's going from the top rack toms all the way down to the floor time. He's doing like the stepwise rhythm. It's so like melodic. Look at that. That's so awesome. And then um, you know, add some china, you know, that little trashy, trash texture on his kit.

unknown 34:40

Psh.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

To get to the next section. Give away the stone.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Let's be and he's singing that over the stone. Let's over the riff. Give the trith? Yes. Give away. Oh, it's so like beautiful. A lot of tension. That's the ninth to the third. Or the major segment. What do you call it the major segment we want? It's just like so majestic. Like beautiful. I've always adored that melody in this moment. And I I really just love what he's saying. Like, give away the stone. Let the oceans take and like we're we're trying to we're trying to get rid of this grudge here now.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

He's trying to heal. Do you think Bannard is is trying to suggest maybe like I really want there to be some sort of magical power that that you know, call it alchemy, call it something else, but like, you know, get rid of this magical, like horrible uh feeling and turn it into something.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Right? But but but maybe we're doomed, maybe we can't.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

All I can tell you is to let go, right? Yeah. Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmute this cold and faded. This is a cool symbols thing, right? This cold and faded anchor cube, right?

SPEAKER_01 36:16

He like those hits there at anchor. Uh no, it's at it's the second time is when he really accentuates. Accentuates what the letter registered. The snare and the trash, the the china. He's he's hitting it to just like emphasize those points more. But it the whole time he's doing the ostinado, like dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. He's not he's not the lead star right now. Danny's just holding it down. But then he adds those, like you said, those accents.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor. Give away the stone, let the waters kiss dude, it's like goosebumps, dude. These lyrics are insane. Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold. Yeah. I didn't think he'd say the word kiss in this song, you know what I mean? Let though so gentle. Let the waters kiss and transmute, right? These Latin grudges into this is this is the same thing as the intro. Right. After he says Scarlet Letterman into gold.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

And then he got ding ding. He comes later out. I love that. So now we're at the part of the song where a lot of the bass has been established and now they're gonna just make a run for it, right? We're gonna finish this song strong right now. And you can feel it. You can feel this transition happening. Just but we don't we didn't know exactly what was gonna happen when we were first listening.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

And then, and then then and then what? And then it gets all quiet and it goes. But as in that quiet moment, right there, right before the scream, you hear Maynard's note, you hear the tritone. They do like reverse reverb or something, and it like swells in, and like the beautiful guys, the beautiful note about the beautiful thing about the scream is yeah, of course it's like 26 seconds long or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

We counted it.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

But it's the note that he's singing. He's not singing the typical Maynard I don't mind. He always sings the perfect fifth, and in this song he goes, The damage done! He's singing the fourth, right? He often sings the fifth, sometimes he'll sing, he'll scream the fourth, but here he's singing, he screams the tritone, which is the devil note. It's like the Black Sabbath note, it's the Lucifer Satan note, okay? It's the and he's holding that because it's like just like maximum tension.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Right. Like you can't get any more ugly than that.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

You can't get any uglier than that, and that is the sound of like your grudge like disintegrating.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Right? So you hear like what's going on under it? It's like I love that this right here. There isn't a more tense note, maybe the minor second, but it wouldn't be as high.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

And this part is just absolutely wild, chaotic, like with the drums. He's just doing this uh like this crazy pattern that just extends and it works with Adam and Justin in such a such a really integrated way. As soon as the screen fades, it's like this building of tension that's happening with like the let go, let go, let go, let go, let go. And you're just like, I I don't know about you, but like when I was listening to this thousands and thousands of times, like I was sort of trying to wonder like where does this thing start? Like, where does that that you hear that click track sound?

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go, let go my god.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

You know, it's just it was such an awesome build-up to like finally the the the really the outro of the song.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

And then uh he he drops down an octave. Right? There's that lift again, the four to the third. We're so good at using the fourth as like a play.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

This this whole drumming escapade, like at the very end, like you know, you just you just learned it through just like watching or listening to Danny do it over and over again. That's the only way you can learn it, right? Because it's like it's a kind of like Tom Sawyer, like with Neil Peart. Like he just does this incredible drum solo moment that like you know it's it it's sort of it's sort of unique and stands on its own, and you don't hear that any anytime else. Right. And any other tool song It's a nugget, it's a nugget that's that belongs in this song, and I just love it when you get those moments because you study them like so religiously that whenever you get to pull them out, it just feels incredible. Oh my god. But uh yeah, he just makes a run for it, and then at the very end, oh my god. And you know, he's he's with Dan, he's with uh Adam and Justin like like super closely all the way until the end.

SPEAKER_02 42:09

And I love how the very beginning of the song we got we got those two notes, right? But by the very very very end of the song, they're doing open and like all the way. Like it's the grudge is so tight here. Wear the grudge like a crown, and by the end it's like it's so open and big now, instead of all tight and like like stone. Here's like and there's a crazy ring in the snare at the very very end, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Yeah, I mean that's the floor tom in the snare. At this point he has his wires out. Uh off. Off and so it sounds like a tom, right? It sounds like a tom, yeah. Sounds like more like a tribal drum, you know, kind of sound. And uh that becomes the statement. That's the opening song. Yeah, it's nice to have a uh like a brief segue of just chill, you know, right before you know you get you get into something much more intense, like the patient. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Yeah, it's so wild, man. Like what a statement. Like what an what an opener. Yeah, it's such a good show opener, too. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

My favorite song of the tool. Um Is it Rush? Yep. Contenders though, you know, I have a uh parabola as a as a special place in my heart. Uh when you and I played it, you know, at some live. Yeah, the first show I ever played. Yeah, when we we were what, 16, 15? I was 13. Yeah. When we were young. But uh you know, that's that's I that's what I love about tools. You know, they have so many incredible moments. And these songs, and you know when you know Tool as closely as some of us do, you you you you don't see the similarities, you see the the dis the distinct qualities of each one standing on their own. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, the grudge is like miles different from like six and leeches and even though we talk a lot about the like similarities across these songs a lot.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Yeah, yeah, I know, it's so true. Right? But they're like they're just such different stories.

SPEAKER_01 44:28

And and I think a lot of criticism that Tool gets is oh, they're just you know harping on the same chords or the same harmonies or something, drop D. Right. Um, and I could I could see that point of view, but I think the beauty that you get from Tool, a band like Tool is is studying their music at at a very you know deeper level and just gaining that appreciation that keeps you a fan for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Forever, man.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

So cool. Well, that was awesome. Mario, thank you so much for for being. I'm at your place right now. I love it. You can hear a baby crying in the background.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Yeah, yeah, we gotta tend to the baby now. Um but I had a really good time.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

This was a lot of fun, man. I want to do more of this. Because Mario, man, guys, Mario is like the reason why I love music. You really are like a huge dude. Definitely not the reason. But dude, I mean chunk of it, dude. We really are. Oh, I love you, man. Too, bro. Thank you guys for listening, and uh see you guys in the next episode, man. God damn. And last thing I want to say is just check out the show notes for some free ear training. Okay, so just check out the links in the show notes, and uh thank you very much, guys, and I'll see you guys next time.